“The art of persuasion lives in the craft of writing…if you want to catapult your writing skills, write a book.”
Léandre Larouche is an author, speaker, and writing consultant based in Toronto, Canada. He is the author of Hétérochrome (2017), Write a Book That Matters (2021), The Architecture of Grammar (2021), and The End of Nonsense (forthcoming).
Léandre is a writing activist. He believes that writing is the most powerful skill in the world and that writing well isn’t hard with the right mindset and approach.
Questions and topics we covered in this episode include:
Kenny Soto 0:01
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the people of digital marketing podcast with your host, Kenny Soto, and today’s special guest letter either how are you?
Léandre Larouche 0:13
I’m good, how are you?
Kenny Soto 0:14
I’m doing good. And for the audience, just so that they can not suffer from me butchering your name. Can you tell the audience how to pronounce your full name?
Léandre Larouche 0:23
Yeah, so my full name is Leon lavosh. That’s the French pronunciation. Yeah,
Kenny Soto 0:29
So my American accent can’t do it justice, but I’m gonna do my best. So they’re on. Before we started recording this, I gave you a brief background into the podcast, the audience, etc. And before diving deep into the world of writing, in which you’re an expert, I wanted the audience just to get more of a background about who you are as a person, your career, and your profession. So my first question for you is, could you describe your career as a whole? And what do you do today?
Léandre Larouche 1:02
Yeah, absolutely. And I do think it’s kind of a, it’s kind of a funny story. And it’s touring with my name, basically, because I grew up in Quebec, in a small town, and so most of Quebec is French-speaking. And so I grew up in French, you know, my family speaks French, I don’t speak English. And for some reason, I was fascinated with the English language.
And I wanted to be a writer. And I also wanted to write in English, partly because I liked how the language sounds, but also because Quebec is quite small, it’s 8 million people. So that’s fairly small in the North American continent. And so I thought, you know, I was always kind of a capitalist, and, you know, entrepreneurial-minded.
And so I figured, well, you know, most of the market is in the English language. And so I wanted to pursue that. So I moved from my small town to Montreal, which is Quebec, a big city, like the economic capital. I studied English literature and Professional Writing at an English-speaking school called Concordia.
Not to be confused with the ones in the US. And, from there, that’s where my career really started. Because my only goal was to master the English language. And I took my degree because I figured, well, I’m going to be reading a lot of books. So I have no choice but to get good at that language. And I’m going to be writing a lot.
And that’s kind of the goal. So I figured that was the right combination for my purpose, and I was very tunnel vision about it. And so while in university, I was very keen on learning outside the classroom, I can say that I learned many useful things in my degree when it comes to life and my professional career. You know, reading, writing, and thinking were like the big ones.
But like tactically speaking, there weren’t many.
So I work as a writing assistant at the Writing Center. That’s where I got a lot of my writing, education, working with people from all disciplines, writing all kinds of things, and really struggling. And I did a lot of content marketing and a lot of copywriting. Back in. When I was an exchange student. In England, I was kind of going broke. And I saw this ad, this guy who was running a freelance writing course. So I took like half of the money that I had left and like, bought this course.
And that’s how I started freelance writing. And that got me into content marketing, started kind of building my personal brand on LinkedIn. And everything evolved from there. Now. On the side, I’ve always been a fiction writer, and I started writing some nonfiction as well. So when I was still in university, I published my first book which was a novel in French.
And after that, I published a couple more. So everything I’ve been doing has been centered around writing and basically the timeless fundamentals of writing, whether it be copywriting or blogging, or book writing. You can see my career has been basically, obsessively focused on the craft of writing at all levels, how writing shapes the way that you think and how writing makes you more successful.
Another thing that I did in university was I worked for a guy that was essentially helping people a lot of the time immigrants get jobs through a resume distribution service, and I had to basically edit the resumes and ghostwrite a cover letter based on the resumes and based on a brief conversation with them. So over like six months, I think I wrote like six or 700 Cover letters for people and so since then, I’ve always helped my friends and You know, sometimes people hire me, I don’t really, I don’t really do it for like people that I don’t know.
But every once in a while I’ll do like a cover letter. And like, you know, there’s the art of persuasion lives and they’re in the craft of writing. So, essentially, it’s always been, it’s always been focused on that craft, it’s always been focused on these fundamentals of writing and what makes for good communication. So yeah, so that’s, that’s my career in a nutshell.
Kenny Soto 5:32
And as far as the present-day is concerned, can you describe your business and the services you currently provide?
Léandre Larouche 5:38
Yeah, so right now I do writing coaching. So I help people write and publish books, mostly entrepreneurs. I also provide training and resources, both to individuals and organizations, and schools. I am working with a college in the Philippines, providing them with textbooks that I wrote on writing-related topics, as well as consulting on how to use these textbooks in their teaching. And so, yeah, it’s a lot of coaching, consulting, and training, both for individuals and organizations.
Kenny Soto 6:21
In the podcast, in the past, we’ve had several authors, and for some reason, it’s escaped me to ask them this question that I’m gonna ask you now. And I think you’re the best person to ask. So I’m glad that I haven’t been able to ask it. Should anyone write a book? When do you know if a book is an appropriate thing that you should start?
Léandre Larouche 6:43
Yeah, so I think so yes. And no, I think the real question is, should anyone publish a book, there are books that I have written that I have not published. And so here’s the thing, writing a book is sort of the ultimate writing exercise, it doesn’t get harder than that the only thing that’s harder is writing a coherent body of work.
Like if you’re Plato or Aristotle, it’s like, you have like a collection of books. But other than that, the book is the longest most complex thing you can write, and it requires structure and unity, you need clarity, you need confidence, you need to be skill at writing. So in that sense, yes. Because if you write the book, if you write the book for yourself, and you do it, right, you’re going to be a way better writer. I mean, I would say anybody should write.
But if you want to, if you want to catapult your writing skills, write a book. I mean, the first thing that I ever wrote was a book. And I wrote a lot of other things in between, but it was the book that helped me improve my writing skills. And most now, I think, you know, should you publish a book? I think it broadly depends.
There are different types of books. If you’re an entrepreneur, I think, especially in a knowledge space, if you will, like a coach or a consultant. There’s no denying that it gives a lot of authority, it gives you a lot of self confidence-confidence that sense, I think it’s a no-brainer.
But the caveat is, it has to be an actually good book. And there are two types of books. There are books that essentially reframe things that already exist. And there are books that break paradigms, basically, that really innovate. And it’s pretty rare to have an idea that completely breaks the paradigm. There’s one book that I’m writing that I would argue actually breaks a paradigm. The other ones are mostly reframing things.
And so if you write a book that reframes things, it’s not completely original. But there’s a lot of value in that both for you and for your readers. Because you’re the book that you write, even if it’s very similar to other books, the way you write it is going to appeal to a certain segment of the market. And so that’s great, they can get the information from you, as opposed to other people that they don’t necessarily resonate with.
And for you, it’s great because it allows you to do the synthesis of everything that you know, really put that into an application, and improve your communication skills. I would say, Yes, everyone should publish a book. But one condition, I would say so I think of a person’s journey as in three steps. So there’s the discovery, there’s mastery, and there’s communication slash leadership, a lot of people are selling the discovery mode. And some people are not even in the discovery mode, which is they’re not even looking for their purpose.
But a lot of people look are looking for their purpose, you’re kind of exploring different fields and disciplines and are trying to find what they actually like. And once you actually like something, that’s something you can spend a lot of time mastering. And you know, the 10,000-hour rule, I think is pretty true. And so you have to find something that you really like that you can actually master. And so when you’re mastering your craft, I think it starts making sense to write a book. And that will help you master it even more.
Because anything you are learning, if you teach it, you’re going to get better at it. And so from the mastery phase, it starts making sense to write a book, I would argue that at the mastery level, it makes sense. Now at the communication level, it absolutely makes sense. In fact, it’s almost required. And I see a lot of people the master something during the match, they pass that, but they’re not going into the communication phase, which I think is really the key to getting to that next level.
And I would say, you know if you’re still in the discovery phase, or you’re not even in the discovery phase, it doesn’t make sense to write and publish a book, it still makes sense to write though. And writing can help you discover your purpose. Because you learn things and you apply them, you re-articulate them, and you do a synthesis of different things that can actually help you discover your purpose. But a book is probably not the best outlet to do that it makes sense in mastery and communication.
Kenny Soto 11:46
As a quick follow-up, would you say anyone who’s in the discovery phase? They’re probably better off blogging.
Léandre Larouche 11:54
Yeah, I would say so. I mean, when you’re in discovery mode, you should obviously read a lot. There’s, I’m sure you’re familiar with Russell Brunson. He has his trilogy of books, like the secrets trilogy, and in one of them expert secrets he talks about, if you’re not an expert already, the way that you can become an expert and build an audience is by actually documenting your journey.
And so you learn and you document your learning journey, and that will eventually make you an expert. I don’t know that I quite agree that, you know, doing that documentation actually makes you an expert. But I definitely agree with them that it’s a great way to discover what you like, it’s a great way to master something. So I would definitely encourage people to blog about their learning, at the very least, to write and journal about the things to note down things, and to write for themselves. And even better if they publish it somewhere on the internet.
Kenny Soto 13:01
And correct me if I’m wrong, but at least a certain number of posts that they write can also be the inspiration for a future book.
Léandre Larouche 13:08
Absolutely, yeah, I think most people at some point in their career, they’ve already posted enough content that you can look at it, see the unity, and make a book out of that.
Kenny Soto 13:22
Now, let’s dive into writing a book because obviously, there are best practices out there. But I want to start off with things you’ve seen, that you disagree with. Are there any quote-unquote, best practices that you see floating around that you don’t agree with?
Léandre Larouche 13:42
Well, I mean, there is a, there is a trend, especially in the internet marketing space, you know, that sort of completely descend for sizes emphasizes good writing? I don’t agree with that. I think you know, I wouldn’t, I don’t think they could really call it a best practice. I think a lot of people encourage people to do transcription, so to like, talk out loud, and then get the thing edited. And, you know, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that you can do it if your goal is to write and publish a book for authority as soon as possible and you already have a large audience that will buy it no matter what. I think that’s probably a good idea.
If you really want to reap the benefits of writing a book, you’re not going to get them from talking out loud because you’re there’s a different voice that you have when you’re speaking versus when you’re writing and good writing is good editing. And so sure you can send your transcription to you know, somebody on Fiverr but at the end of the day won’t be the same as you know, a is the kind of book that you find at the bookstore essentially. So that’s kind of a trend I don’t necessarily agree with.
I don’t, I’m not saying that people shouldn’t do it, there might be a day when I do with myself. I think it can be valuable. But I think, I guess, I guess the idea that the writing doesn’t matter is something that I don’t agree with because you should, you should create an experience for readers and the book that you write is an opportunity for you to connect if it’s a book that helps your authority. Well, that book is an opportunity for you, to connect with your potential readers. And that comes through voice and style.
And so you can achieve some of that through transcription, but there’s a level of polishing that you’re not going to be able to get if you take that approach. So yeah, so the idea that the writing doesn’t matter that, you know, a lot of book coaches say like, well, you know, grammar doesn’t matter, and so on. I don’t quite agree with that. I can understand why for some people, it’s not really a priority. But, yeah, it’s not really, yeah, I have a bit of a different approach. I’m a bit more of the old school, and I tend to work more with people that want to create something substantial. And that’s kind of legacy building for them, not just like a tool that they want. In the immediate.
Kenny Soto 16:35
Yeah. Let’s assume, in this scenario, that I’m a future client of yours. I have an idea for a book that I want to create. I have no idea how to start. What advice do you have?
Léandre Larouche 16:48
Yeah, so the first thing, sorry, could you repeat the last question?
Kenny Soto 16:52
Yeah. What advice do you have for someone who has an idea, but doesn’t know how to start? At all? Yeah. So
Léandre Larouche 16:59
I think the fundamental mistake that we make when it comes to writing is we’re expecting that we need to start with the answers. Whereas we really need to be starting with the questions. And you have a lot of questions that you know, you could be answering, or else you wouldn’t be thinking of writing a book. So instead of trying to have answers and put a bunch of answers together and piece them together in some sort of Frankenstein, which is what a lot of people do when they try to write a book on their own without any guidance.
My encouragement would be to actually think about the one big question that you seek to answer, and then divide that into other questions. And then you get more questions. And by having the questions, you know what to say, instinctively. And so it’s a lot easier, and it’s actually a lot more humble. To start with the questions rather than to start with the answers. The questions will actually die, and your thought process in the right direction. And, you know, starting with the answers will just take you everywhere.
Kenny Soto 18:11
What are the right habits to form when actually writing a book?
Léandre Larouche 18:17
Yeah, so my students often asked my routine or like when I write and how long I write, and frankly, I don’t have any sort of like set routine, I think, I think it all comes from knowing you have to do this, and that this is important. And that kind of time for writing appears because you say no to other things. And you say yes to writing. I don’t really have a solid answer to that.
But I will say that you know when the timing is right when the project is right, and you need to do writing, it’s like, and I’m an entrepreneur, myself, and I work with intrapreneurs. And like, everything’s always breaking in your business every single day, like there’s always like, some fire, to to, you know, take care of, but at the end of the day is like, what matters is that you actually make the time and that whatever time left, you use it for writing. And you have to think about it holistically in the sense that your writing is competing with all the other things you could do both in your business and in your personal life.
And so you have to prioritize. I will say though, that if you’re a new writer, if you’re starting, you’re building your practice, writing every day is a must. But the emails that you write, also count as long as you’re conscious. So when people ask me, How do I improve my writing? I tell them, you have to learn. I call this the architecture of writing.
That’s the name of my methodology, but guess we can just call it the components of writing Once you know these you can be conscious of them whenever you read and write. And so you can read for content like when you open an email, you read it for content, you understand it, you reply to it. But you can also read it for form and for understanding. And so, for example, next time you get an email, you could look at it and analyze how the sentences and how the words are lined up together and what effect it has on you. Now, chances are, the person who wrote the email didn’t put conscious thought into it.
Kenny Soto 20:38
So
Léandre Larouche 20:42
So it’s not like we can really hold that person accountable for the effect. But the intention doesn’t really matter. What matters is the consequence. I’ll give you an example. To our brains understand words, literally, so if I tell you, like, don’t think about an elephant, you’re gonna think of an elephant.
That’s because the elephant is the content word. It’s what creates the image, they don’t think, what they think, is the verb, but the doubt, that’s just a function or function words. So it just shows a relationship between the words so it doesn’t create an image. So whatever content words or image words, we put in a sentence, that’s what the brain goes to. So if I, if you say you’re welcome, if you say thank you to me, and I say, No problem, then your brain goes to the word problem.
That’s not good, you know, that’s not a good word, like the problem is negative. If I say it’s my pleasure, your brain thinks of pleasure. And if I see you are welcome, you think of welcome. If you ask, How are you, I say I’m good, or I’m fine. Like, if I say, Oh, I’m fantastic, your brain goes to fantastic. And, you know, this works at a much larger scale as well. I’ll give you an example. If I’m writing a business, apology letter to a customer, and I say, Oh, my, I’m sorry that my staff member called you a liar.
Even though that’s what happened. I don’t want to write that because it takes my customer back to that interaction, and the word liar is offensive to the customer. So what I’ll say instead is, I’ll say I’m sorry that my staff member implied you weren’t saying the truth. I’m saying the same thing. But now the brain goes to the word truth. That’s a much more positive word. And so I actually did that. Yesterday, I reply to an email that I was supposed to reply to, like five days prior. And I said, I was gonna write, I’m sorry that I am sorry for taking so long to reply, or I’m sorry for the delay in replying, it somehow got lost.
But like, now, I’ve got sorry, late last, these are all negative words. So instead, what I did is I deleted this whole thing. And I wrote, I said, I wrote, thank you for your patience, I typically respond much faster. I somehow didn’t see that email until now. And so that’s all positive words, instead of negative. So when that person sees my email, even if she’s like, not happy that I took like, three days more than I was supposed to, like, her brain goes to like positive things.
So she’s not going to be as upset and say, did that again, instead of saying, even if she’s, I didn’t say if she even if she says I say even if she’s not happy. So you can control the words and I kind of progress here. But essentially, once you understand these kinds of details, you can notice them and you can reflect on how they make you feel as a reader, and you can start implementing that. And from there it compounds.
You know, I could give you countless examples with the sentence structure where you put each part of the sentence will have an impact. I’ll give you another really quick example that has to do with marketing. In a sentence, you have clauses, right, you have different parts of the sentence. And so I saw on an Instagram post not long ago, I said you it said you really don’t want to miss this if you seek financial independence.
Now the first thing that I see is you really don’t want to sit and miss this, which is a sales, bitch I don’t even know yet what you’re offering so I don’t even know if I don’t want to miss this. I probably want to miss this because you sound like you’re wanting to sell me something. If you said instead, if you’re seeking financial independence, you really don’t want to miss this. Well, if I’m seeking financial independence sounds fair enough. I probably like now I don’t want to miss this like yeah, Sign me up. But um, you know, there’s a big difference between Putting the information first and last. And there are countless details like that, that once you start noticing,
you know, you can implement that. And you can make your writing a lot better you can make yourself more persuasive make it can make people like you more. So. So the first step is to understand these components. And the example I was giving you, you have to know what a class is. So, these days, people aren’t so keen on grammar. But you know, if you understand grammar, you understand how to be persuasive. If you understand how to be persuasive, that’s how you make a lot of money. To understand the components, read for these components, and apply them in your writing. And that’s a great way to become not just a good writer, but a good communicator and a successful person.
Kenny Soto 25:50
When the book is still in draft form, when do you actually go out, either on behalf of yourself or on the behalf of a client to source for feedback?
Léandre Larouche 26:02
Yeah, so I would, I would do it as early as I can, especially if you’re writing a book that is heavily geared towards, you know, solving a problem for readers because you want to make sure that you’re clear, you want to make sure that you’re compelling. And so…
And so you want to get that feedback as early as possible. You could do a brief outline, send it to people and ask them, you know, do you think that’s what’s helpful to you to solve this problem? I think at various stages, you can get that feedback, once you have a couple of chapters can get people’s feedback to see if you’re in the right direction.
Once you have the first draft, obviously, you need to start getting feedback to start revision. And obviously, not everybody’s feedback is equal. So you have to keep that in mind. But yeah, I think once you have a couple of chapters in and once you have the first draft, that’s a good time to start getting feedback.
Kenny Soto 27:10
I know you talked about the audio transcript, being one kind of trend that you don’t agree with, but people do use Ghost Riders or ghost riders or recommendations that you would approve. And if so, how do you evaluate a ghostwriter?
Léandre Larouche 27:29
Yeah, so I’ve done some ghostwriting myself. So there’s, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with ghostwriting. As I said earlier about the transcripts. I personally, like my philosophy. It’s not so long with it, but I don’t, you know, it’s okay. depends. It depends on everybody. In ghostwriting, what’s really difficult is to find somebody who can actually write in your voice. That’s the hardest thing oftentimes Ghost Riders will do is they will interview you.
And they will take your answers and use those answers and sort of expand them. When you evaluate a ghost rider, you want to make sure that their voice and their style are aligned with yours in a sense that, you know, if you’re a very informal person, and they’re like a grammar Nazi, that’s probably not going to go well not because they’re going to make the grammar perfect.
That’s kind of like a given that like you want the punctuation to be in the right place. But they’re going to be like they’re going to ride in a probably more formal way. And so if that’s not your style, then that’s not going to work. I think for a ghost rider, you want to have someone who’s like-minded, perhaps even somebody who’s your target audience, in some sense. I think that’s useful. A lot of clients have hired me as a writing coach because they figure in one way or another, I’m the kind of person that they would want to write for.
So my feedback and personal level are also useful. I think you have to look at what they’ve written before. I think if you can do a sort of like, a trial of sorts, if you want to, like test your writing, as you pay them for their time, and you look at like how they would like, transcribe your answers and in a book format, I think that can help as well. It’s stuff I don’t necessarily so here’s how I do it with clients. It’s essentially a hybrid between ghostwriting coaching, I figure it out, I help them build the book, and the structure, and then I do a long-form interview with them. Not too long.
By the book for them, but to find which questions they need to answer, then I give them the list of all the questions that need to answer. And then you can write it out if they want to speak it out. You know, I think that’s not optimal, but I’m going to let them so then we can polish it later. But I highly encourage them to write it themselves. And so it’s their words, it’s their written voice, not their spoken voice. And then they send it to me. And then I polish it. And I make it sound more like the written version of them.
So I sort of like to look at the patterns and double down on these patterns to make them grammatically correct. And that creates their manuscripts. So that’s, that’s how I proceed with clients, I found that to be the most effective way. It’s a nice balance between well not doing too much work as a ghostwriter.
Because you can only work with so many people as a ghostwriter. And also teaching them something in the process and getting them to reap the benefits of writing the book and giving them the satisfaction of having written it themselves. Especially if they do it, you know, on the keyboard, as opposed to speaking into a microphone. So that’s, that’s how I proceed That’s my preferred way. I mean, clients like it as well. So that’s, that’s my method.
Kenny Soto 31:33
Two more questions. Self Publish, versus publisher.
Léandre Larouche 31:39
Yeah, well, the difference is becoming less and less, if we’re being real here. A lot of the time, the publisher will so want you to do a lot of the marketing, really the benefit of the traditional publishers is that you don’t have to do any of the post-writing work, which has a lot of benefits, but you’re also collecting a very minimal percentage of the royalties.
And they will get you into bookstores really easily. You can get your book into bookstores, as a self-published author, but you’ve got to get a distribution deal. And bookstores are kind of picky with what books I mean, there are millions of books. So we’ve got to give them a reason why. Why, you know, get your book. And it actually has to sell which a lot of books don’t sell even the traditionally published books literally don’t sell.
The way the traditional publishers work is that are the five books that they published, one will be a home run, they’ll probably lose money on all four others, but then they’ll recoup all their money on the fifth one. And it’s kind of like, there’s no real way to predict like, which one is going to be a best seller. There are variables that factor, you know, the audience, the topic, the timing, the marketing budget, the PR, but at the end of the day, you know, there’s no like bulletproof like a magic formula for like a real like New York Time bestseller because making the Amazon list is a completely different story.
Now. If you’re going to self-publish, you have to be ready to do the marketing. If you want to sell books, you probably have to do the marketing as well as you’re going to go the traditionally published route. But the publisher, well-put marketing resources, will put a team at your disposal to do a lot of the work. And you’ll have that extra level of authority, especially if you’re working with a big-name publisher, like Penguin or HarperCollins. Any of these big publishing companies.
So I think it depends if you don’t want to do a lot of the work and your book is going to sell so much that you’re still going to make a good amount of money off the minimal percentage. Yeah, I think it makes sense. If it’s a very sort of like a culture-changing book, it would really benefit from TV and radio attention. I would say it also makes sense. But even people that could traditionally publish sometimes decide to go the self-publish round. So it really depends. There’s the audience as well.
The bigger your audience that easier, the easier it is to sell your book to a publisher. But then you have to factor in all the other things that we just talked about. So really depends, I would say my advice would be to talk to somebody like a consultant that could basically help you figure out what’s the right move when it comes to self-publishing versus traditional public She, in your specific situation?
Kenny Soto 35:04
My last question is hypothetical. If you had access to a time machine, and you can go back into the past, knowing everything, you know, about, like 10 years, how would you accelerate the speed of your career? Oh,
Léandre Larouche 35:19
I mean, I would go. So if I could go back 10 years, I would get on. I would get on social media, I would create content on social media, like, ahead of the curve, because every social media platform, you know, the algorithm changes over time. And so there was a, there was a window of time when if you got on LinkedIn, now you have like, half a million followers just because of how it boosted engagement.
I wish you would let me go back 20 years ago, there’ll be because they would buy all the domains, I would, I would buy a lot of internet real estate. I would just buy all the writing stuff on the writing domains and completely dominate that niche. But no, seriously, like, 10 years ago, yeah, I would go back to social media, I would start creating content online and on social media a lot earlier, and I would fully leverage the power of each social media platform.
And yeah, I mean, at the same time, it’s funny you ask that because I never really thought about that. And the reason I haven’t really thought about that is I guess it also depends, do you let me go back with my skills or just the knowledge? Because, you know, 10 years ago? I didn’t have the scale. So I probably wouldn’t have put myself out there as much. So I think it’s, you know, you have to learn a skill before you do that. So, anyway, that’s what I would do. I would create content on social media platforms in a very conscious way. Because I could basically, yeah, I will be more, I will be more conscious. And that would be more of an early adopter of the social media platforms.
Kenny Soto 37:11
If anyone’s listening and hasn’t started TikTok. That’s your push, just start. Now later on. If anyone wants to say hello, where can they find you online?
Léandre Larouche 37:20
Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Yeah, they can also visit my website, Leon’s love wash.net. That’s my personal website. They can also visit my business website, which is Trivium writing.com. And, yeah, probably the best way to say hello to me is on LinkedIn.
Kenny Soto 37:44
Perfectly. Ron, thank you for your time today, and thank you to you the listener for listening to another episode of the people’s Digital Marketing podcast. And as always, I hope you have a great week.
Bye.