“I write to find out what I know and what I don’t know, like writing is thinking to me.”

 

Eric Jorgenson is a startup growth guy and writer. He is on the founding team of Zaarly, and has been publishing online since 2014. His business blog, Evergreen, has educated and entertained over a million readers. Eric is on a quest to create (and eat) the perfect sandwich. He tweets at @ericjorgenson and publishes new pieces and projects on ejorgenson.com. And he is also the author of The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: A guide to wealth and happiness.

 

Full Episode Transcript:

Kenny Soto  0:00  

And we are now recording and 54321 Hello everyone. My name is Kenny Soto and welcome to Kenny Soto Digital Marketing podcast. As always, thank you for listening to this podcast and all the previous episodes. Today I have another special guest and I’m very excited to speak to him. His name is Eric Jorgensen. 

Eric is a startup Growth Guy and writer. He is on the founding team of Zaarly and has been publishing online since 2014. His business blog, Evergreen has educated and entertained over a million readers. Eric is also on a quest to create and eat the perfect sandwich, which is an admirable mission. He tweets at each season he tweets at Eric Jorgensen, and publishes new pieces and projects on Ejorgenson.com. He is also the author of the almanac of navall Raava Khan’s a guide to wealth and happiness. Welcome, Eric. 

 

Eric Jorgenson  1:00  

Thanks for having me, Kenny. It’s gonna be fun. 

 

Kenny Soto  1:02  

Yes. So prior to recording, I mentioned to you that the purpose I created the purpose for me creating this podcast was to help marketers like myself, who are 2,3,4 years into their career and are trying to get more actionable advice and resources to help them with their professional life, especially now in 2021, Things are hectic, and we don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, let alone with COVID. But just with changes in technology, it’s going to be difficult, and also exciting to be a digital marketer in the future. So my first question for you is, why did you get into marketing?

 

Eric Jorgenson  1:43  

It’s an interesting question. I don’t I don’t even think of myself as a marketer necessarily, like, I think if you if you think of yourself as a product person, then you are kind of inherently like trying to design something and create something that people want. And marketing, the like definitions of marketing historically has been very, like take a product and sell it, take it to market, you know, get the distribution for it, position it in the marketplace, like get the pricing and the positioning, right. 

And I think like more and more of that is happening in product development, and less in just distribution and communication and advertising. So the boundaries of like, what is marketing and what is product are getting less and less clear. And as marketing gets increasingly competitive, and the platforms get commoditized, and things like that you are kind of getting towards marketing as a, as a craft is changing a little bit and it is kind of like on the one hand turning into product development, on the other hand is merging into like, marketing departments are looking a lot more like media companies than they are like marketing departments.

And we’re choosing so much of our own media as viewers now that commercials and things like that are just a little less, less relevant, less of a key driver of behavior than being involved in, in media a little more naturally. And so I think like you’re seeing brands, like Wendy’s turn to, like, create social media, like as as media, not as advertisement. And, you know, companies like Basecamp, writing books and starting podcasts instead of buying ads in other media and things like that. So it’s very interesting to see like, how marketing is transforming, kind of on both ends at the same time.

 

Kenny Soto  3:45  

Fantastic. And my next question for you would be, what would because you just mentioned that you’re not necessarily just a marketer. So what was your first job where you had certain roles and tasks that included marketing?

 

Eric Jorgenson  4:02  

Yeah, I had kind of my first job. My first role as early was very, very marketing very, like customer acquisition oriented. And we went through kind of one round of like, trying to figure out how to scale one to one outreach. And so we found that like, if you can have a conversation with someone, if you can meet them where they are and understand their context, then of course, you can offer your product in the right way that fits in their, into their set of needs and solves a problem for them in that moment. 

And that on one to one basis like that works incredibly well. And so scaling that is really tricky. And so we worked on a lot of probably gray hat is the is the right classification for it like and hiring people and setting up automations and things so that you can you know, templatized andGet a very repeatable, highly scalable, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people a day, but it still feels like a very personal experience for the customers being acquired, which is like a pretty unique, you know, people can sense when something is scaled or impersonal or prepackaged. 

You know, we all go through, you know, onboarding, and things like that. This is really a templated email that’s in there are now like relatively low cost ways to make things feel very, very personal in ways that are like, even a little, almost deliberately less polished, but high, high personality, and it feels a little more like your hand is being held, even though it’s less clean, it’s more personal. And people respond to that, especially if it is, you know, tweaks just enough around the edges to kind of feel right to them and bring them along. 

 

Kenny Soto  5:54  

And for more context, what does Zaarly do as a company?

 

Eric Jorgenson  5:59  

Is always a marketplace for home services. So we help homeowners hire and manage, you know, plumbers, electricians, lawn care, housecleaning, everything they need to kind of repair and care for their home. So that is that is where we are now and I’ve worked on the homeowner side, which is, which is pretty marketing oriented. And the service provider side, which is much more sales oriented. 

And so there’s a marketing element of that for sure. But I think that marketers can benefit from, you know, doing one of those, like high touch sales jobs where like, you just have to talk to as many people as you can and hear that back and forth and put out an idea and hear it, you know, either resonate or not with somebody that you’re talking with, or see how they repeat an idea back to you what they agree with what they don’t, if you give them two options, and then they choose a third, like, those are things that maybe you can test with copywriting at some scale, but you just get so much more nuance when you’re actually in conversation with someone. 

And it can be intimidating to like, you know, pick up the phone and talk to your customers, especially in a cold call situation. But like I gained a lot from that and learned a lot from doing it. And I think you know, you when you go back and read like Ogilvy on advertising or Scientific Advertising, Claude Hopkins, like some of the the originals, you see that they did that same thing. They took a product and went door to door sales for, you know, a week or two just to hear how people reacted and what resonated and what didn’t. And then they turned that into ad copy, and then started some of the more high scale marketing. And so I think there’s a lot of value to that, you know, still today.

 

Kenny Soto  7:40  

I’m glad you mentioned those two books on that same topic. Are there other resources? And they don’t necessarily need to be books, they can be YouTube channels, other marketers other podcasts? Are there other resources that you use to stay up to date, both with your profession And just in general with your skills? 

 

Eric Jorgenson  7:58  

Yeah, I think I think there’s a lot to learn from the jobs to be done framework. So I’ve learned a lot from, you know, this was developed by Bob mesta and Clayton Christensen at Harvard Business School. And I think it’s it is been around for a while, and it’s been well tested, and proven out, but it’s just now kind of getting its do I think as a as like a framework for marketing and sales.  

And Bob mesta is has just come out with a great book called demand side selling one on one. And it’s a it is an awesome kind of overview of how to understand your customers struggling moment he calls it like everything that you have to offer only matters if it fits in the context of solving a problem for your customer. 

And so finding out that’s less about, you know, my customers 35 years old, and you know, married with two kids, like the demographics almost don’t matter, to wildly different people can be having the exact same struggle. And that struggle is solved by your product. And so it is about finding people and speaking to them in that moment, and in that struggle and showing them the progress that they can make with your product. 

And so really that I mean, that’s the craft of marketing. Right. And that is that comes as a result of you know, he does these interviews is unstructured, but very methodical interviews that are almost like it’s like he uses interrogation techniques to bring back people’s like very high specificity memories of decisions that they made of like, okay, you were in Costco, like, why were you in Costco? Were you and you bought a mattress but you weren’t shopping for a mattress and you hadn’t been to a mattress store and you hadn’t been like, why did you make that decision in that moment? What was it about your environment or the fact that you had your family with you or the fact that you didn’t sleep well that night, or the fact that you just had a kid like it’s not about the features of that mattress? It’s about the context of that customer’s life and understanding that and studying it and creating profiles around that is really something that I have found helpful. 

And that like, is a practice that continues to evolve. So doing those interviews myself, structuring some of those ideas, you know, practicing that over and over again, in different context has been really, really helpful for me. So I’d encourage people to check out jobs to be done. And like we talked about some of the originals of the advertising, trade, Ogilvy, Claude Hopkins, I find those really helpful, you know, on the tools and tactics side, like that stuff evolves so fast that you just got to keep kind of it, as soon as you start to talk about any particular platform like that gets that can be obsolete pretty quickly. And so the platform’s kind of, you know, I look beyond those and into some of the more timeless kind of pieces of the craft.

 

Kenny Soto  10:47  

Yeah, and I liked that you mentioned that because it’s very important for any marketer to like really have a solid sense of the foundational skills, whether or not they’re going to be a copywriter, or designer, or in branding, or in sales, having a general understanding of all those areas, is very important for their career. 

I like that you also mentioned context. So are you involved? And can you give specifics on the market research side of your business? Like, how do you go about understanding the nuances of your particular audience that you’re targeting?

 

Eric Jorgenson  11:32  

I mean, I think it’s a, you try to do as much research as you can before, committing, but also, like, you know, market research can lead you astray, both both ways, right. Like, I remember early in early Uber days, like, people were sizing the whole cab market and looking at Uber and saying, like, if they replaced every taxi in America, they’d still only be a $4 billion company, or something like that. 

And like, like that market research, just didn’t see didn’t take like the imaginative leap to say, like, Oh, this is actually going to change the whole pattern of transportation. And it’s going to, you know, 100x, the size of that market and completely change, and just gobble up a whole bunch of markets nearby. 

And so, you know, the research that you can do is much more about where are my customers? And what problems are they having? And can I solve those problems, even on a one on one basis. And then you may be surprised. I mean, Paul Graham talks a little bit about this in the startup world, like, just keep solving customers problems, and you’ll find your way, you know, to a good place. And you may be surprised at how many people’s problems you solve, if you start with, you start with the size of a already well defined market, you may be missing how big something could get. 

And if you start with the problem, you solve a problem in a new way. You know, who would have thought Airbnb is as big as it is, who would have thought like that, you know, Stripe starting to solve online payments, when there was already pay pal. And there’s already a few other things is like, even when it was started, the market was so much smaller, and so like the market is growing. And markets are consolidating. 

And like the things on either side are getting bigger, like you. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot that goes into market research. But you can really fool yourself with some like false precision. And I think if you if you put too much into looking at the world in a static way from one perspective, and you’re almost better off, starting to build and starting to solve a customer problem on a one on one basis. 

And then continuing to say like, Okay, we solve this customer’s problem. How many more customers are there like that? How many nearby adjacent problems are there? How many problems have I solved, like, almost accidentally, that are the same solution. And then I can reach out from there. And so you started to see some really interesting things. And so many of the biggest companies and products were discovered, like almost accidentally, that you just can’t plot out the whole journey before you start.

 

Kenny Soto  14:08  

Now, we’re going to diverge just a little bit and go into another topic that I definitely want to dive deep with you. You consider yourself a writer. Now, how has writing one affected your career? And why did you start writing in the first place?

 

Eric Jorgenson  14:30  

Yeah, I mean, I write to find out what I know. And I don’t know, you know, like writing is thinking to me. And I find like there’s this kind of paradox of like, if you don’t know what you think, like, go write down and if you need to write for some reason, like go think before you right, and so whatever one feels if one feels stuck, like go to the other, is where I started, but I mean For me writing, I’m still relatively early in my career, like, I’m only 30 years old. 

And so for me writing has been a process of just trying to re to learn and re articulate what I’m, what I’m learning and what I’m taking in. And, you know, it’s very easy to passively read. And I do read a lot. But I find that you can, like, read and feel good about what you’re reading. And if you don’t try to recap it, or rewrite it or explain it to somebody, then it just falls out of your head. And it’s not there when you need it. 

And you’re not even sure that you fully understood the ideas and you haven’t reconciled some of the challenges within the ideas. And so it just became part of my process to like, try to synthesize things and write them out. And in writing, when I know that I have to share something and put my name on it, I all of a sudden have a much higher bar for how well I have to explain it, how well I’ve articulate it. 

And I’m just more careful with my words, and try to try to write cleaner. And so it is, it all starts from a place of like, this is a thing that I want to do, or something that I want to learn. And writing helps me learn, it helps me know what I believe it helps me parse out, you know, some of the challenges in the ideas. 

And then sharing, it starts a feedback loop of like, when I work harder on it, and too, if I get something wrong, or somebody wants to talk more about the ideas, it starts a conversation and it like attracts the kind of people that are going to teach me more about those ideas or that are interested in them also, and we become kind of like partners in learning. 

And so it is really it has taught me a lot it it has raised my standards for how much I know or how well I know things. And it is also like kind of accidentally led me to do a bunch of great relationships and you know, projects and things like that. And there’s there’s a lot of benefits to just kind of being willing to make your work public and put it out there and share it. And, you know, I think a lot of people have benefited from the posts and synthesis and things that I’ve shared, which it feels great on its own. And it’s also kicked off a lot of great conversations and opportunities. I’m grateful for those as well.

 

Kenny Soto  17:06  

Speaking of projects, you just launched a new book, about navall Raava Khan and his life. So before we get into the book, can you give backstory on how you discovered navall? And why? Like, like, how did that idea come to your mind of creating a book about his life?

 

Eric Jorgenson  17:27  

Yeah, it’s kind of an interesting backstory now that I’ve like, now that I can look back on it, you know, you couldn’t have plotted it out. But so when I was probably 19, I got like, very accidentally, my first kind of meeting with like, a real person from Silicon Valley, who was like a real founder and investor and like, had an amazing track record. 

And he said, like, you know, the valley is where it’s at, like, you should plan to move there, if you want to kind of learn this is you know, more than 10 years ago now, but like, so it’s a little less true than it used to be, but you like, move there. And if you want to get into, like start putting a foot in that culture, go read all of Paul Graham and read all of Venture Hacks, which was the Vols blog at the time. 

And so to me, he was kind of introduced as this like, you know, one of the lighthouses of Silicon Valley, like if you want to understand the culture, study this guy and read what he’s sharing. So it’s like, alright, hell yeah, I’m gonna go read all that. And so I have always kind of followed him on Twitter, listen to his podcasts, listen to his interviews, you know, one of, you know, 10 or 20 people that I follow, like, relatively closely in the valley and different investors and founders and things like that. 

But it wasn’t until maybe, you know, three years ago or so that this like became a project. And it’s funny to see like how those dots got connected, but a really like I have always read. Poor Charlie’s Almanac is one of my favorite books. And I read a lot of the books like about Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, and I was reading principles by Ray Dalio just like his kind of post career, recap of his life, like, here’s how I made decisions. Here’s my story. 

Here’s how I tried to operate my company. And he says in that in that book like that he wish other people would take the time to document the process and their beliefs and their systems, so that he could learn from them. And I was like, man, yeah, there’s a whole bunch of people that I would love to have read, you know, principles of, of all robic hop principles of, you know, Charlie Munger. 

And so this kind of sub genre of books that people have compiled and created, you know, they took Munger speeches and some of his biography and some bits about him and made poor Charlie’s Almanac and this is a thing you know, people recompile what their learnings from Warren Buffett’s letters and turn those into books. 

So I’ve been reading these these kinds of compilation books my whole life, not really realizing it or identifying them that way. but it did mean that when I saw that idea in principles and saw that book for what it was, and had been following evolve for 10 years, like these pieces kind of came together being like, oh, all of these raw materials are out there. 

Like he’s got dozens of interviews and his whole Twitter history, and it’s all public. And his beliefs are out there and his principles and his story. And if I go do the work to look all those resources up and break them all down, and like I could write this book, from the pre existing like public raw materials, without needing any special access without needing, you know, to follow him around for weeks without needing interviews, like, I can just do this. And so I kind of made that offer on Twitter. And he took me up on it. And away we went.

 

Kenny Soto  20:48  

What was or what were the main challenges for not just creating the book, but also marketing and online?

 

Eric Jorgenson  21:00  

Well, yeah, this book had some real marketing advantages in the novel, the ball already has, you know, a million followers. And a lot of people are excited to dive into his ideas, and he has already unique and well followed. And this is a little bit back to the, you know, the product stuff that we talked about at the beginning, like this marketing challenge was, I guess I should say, like, this book had some real marketing, tailwinds because of who it’s about and how it came about. 

And it’s interesting that, you know, I really like how unique this book is, and how I get to tell stories about the process of creating it in the format. And like, I don’t have to pitch the content of the book, the content of the book speaks for itself. And, you know, it is, there’s also somewhat universal in that, like, everybody wants to be, you know, rich and happy. 

And that’s like, the gist of the book and what it’s about. And it’s, I worked hard to make it very evergreen and very universally, like, you know, to keep the content on a principle level. So that it’s like kind of universally appealing that a 19 year old can get as much out of it as a 60 year old. And, you know, we’ve got happy readers kind of all throughout that process, or throughout that age range and, and all over the world. And so it was a very, it was a very rewarding to put something out like that, that is so kind of kind of universal, and so is not an uphill battle to like, offer someone these ideas and to talk about them. 

And I should say, also, like, the book is available for free, like, I don’t have to, I don’t have to pitch it, I don’t have to sell it, I don’t have to. These aren’t my ideas, you know, I don’t struggle to talk about how great they are, because they all came from, from navall. I don’t feel weird about evangelizing them. I don’t you know, and the book is available for free in PDF and epub and Moby and if you just want to download it and read it and have it for yourself like you can. So is there’s a lot of kind of context to the story that makes it makes it an interesting and unique story to tell. Makes me excited to talk about it. 

And it just feels very like a non conventional, not like a conventional marketing challenge from a book perspective. And that is that is by design. You know, like I saw that trap or that challenge and made intentional decisions at the beginning of this project to avoid, you know, as many of those as possible, do something that I knew would avoid having marketing challenges, right. Invest three years in building something that I wouldn’t have any idea like how it would go.

 

Kenny Soto  23:52  

Exactly. Now, I have another question. And this is definitely something that I personally felt the need to ask just because I’ve been having my own blog since 2015. And quite frankly, I’ve plateaued like 100 readers, right. And I’m grateful for those 100 readers, but I’m trying to figure out what am I missing to start scaling the readership more? And you’ve been writing since 2014, What strategies have you been using to grow your readership over time?

 

Eric Jorgenson  24:24  

What what is your blog about what is like the package? How do you explain it to people?

 

Kenny Soto  24:30  

It’s, quite frankly, just anything. I’m learning about business and digital marketing. That’s it. 

 

Eric Jorgenson  24:37  

So I think I think that I did this almost accidentally when I first started evergreen,but one of the things that I think made it grow relatively quickly was that it was a well defined thing and people knew what to expect and that’s part of part of building a brand is just, you know, making a Promise and delivering on it consistently over time. 

And, you know, the, it is easy to get people on board or excited about something when they see what’s in it for them very clearly and keep coming back to it. And so you know, evergreens sort of structure was each week, I’ll take one business topic. And I’ll ask my list to my community to send in the greatest resource they’ve ever seen about that topic. And I would synthesize it, and share back with the community. 

And so it was providing this like service of curation. And so anybody who is interested in learning those business principles, |in a abbreviated sort of like high information way, and having links back to those original sources, it’s easy for them to understand where they fit in, it’s easy for them to understand what they were going to get. 

And it was a unique take, you know, most people are just you know, your there are many blogs similar with a with a gestalt similar to yours, or a proposal similar to yours, right, like, a lot of people just writing about what they’re interested in or writing about marketing, you’re competing with probably a lot of like business and marketing blogs, like actual like content engines with big budgets that are trying to win the same, like keywords that you are in.

So like the SEO is going to be tricky. Whereas you know, there’s a lot of people trying to figure out network effects or flywheels, or something like as those concepts are emerging, and people are trying to figure out, like, what is this thing? How does it apply to my business? How can I use it, how are my competitors using it, and it engages participation with people.

And so it was, it was a novel, like the things that I think evergreen had going for it is a novel structure. So it was a unique sort of thing. It was a clear structure, you know, you’re gonna get one post one each week, and it’s going to have these sort of things. And it had a mission behind it, which have a vision almost, which is, hey, like, most of the stuff that you read, is very driven by, you know, the desire to get eyeballs, the desire to get traffic. And it’s just, like, very deliberately rehashed cheaply and trying to just create something somebody else trying to get, just get you to click on something. 

And so the mission of evergreen was really surface, the very, very best, over a long sample size. But if you look over 10 years, and you’ve got a whole community of people sending in the best thing that they remember, on a particular resource, it’s a pretty effective method for like, hey, these five or 10, videos, podcasts, articles, blog posts are truly memorable and helpful and explanatory. And that vision of like, Hey, you’re reading a bunch of basically junk food, just because it’s sitting on top of your feed. 

And this is a place that you can come that is going to give you only evergreen content that has already passed not just the bar of, you know, memory of somebody in the community, remembering it, but recommending it and me reading it amongst all of this other context and repackaging it and synthesizing on top. And so it was kind of a, you know, mission driven, clear expectations, participation driven. And when you see some of the other successful blogs they are. They’re either very predictable. 

So like trying Griffin, a 25. IQ is like that is at least just a really predictable package. You know, he writes, here’s my 12 lessons learned from blank, it’s usually a celebrity or an investor or something like that. And he does it every week. And it’s always the same structure. And I don’t find it to be like a remarkably insightful blog, but it’s very predictable. 

And it’s, you know, a quick hit. And if you learn something great. But when you have limited attention, and if there’s like effort for the reader to go through understanding a new format, like I know, I’m going to read everything that way. But why writes because he’s so thorough, and so funny. 

And so like, it is unique in that way, and I know what I’m gonna get there. And it that blog has stood out for a long time. For some of those reasons. And, you know, Charlie Munger, like has this great articulation of brand that I think, you know, applies here that is like, the great brands win by taking a few variables, you know, one or two and turning them all the way up or all the way down. 

And I think that’s what you know, you can imagine, some of the most memorable podcasts have like one or two dials turned all the way down or all the way up, right, like Hardcore History is like absurdly long podcast. But that guy can do that. And if you were at a pitch meeting, and you said, like, look, we’re going to do super long episodes about history in great detail. I don’t know Do people really want that but enough people want that and it is the most extreme version of it, that it’s awesome. 

Joe Rogan puts out an episode every single day that’s like four hours long but has a huge viewership because of how people opt into those. And so IKEA is like a traditional like the brain But the longer uses is like, it’s inconvenient as hell, there’s one in every city, you have to go through the whole giant maze and then have to pick up your own thing. 

And then you have to take it home and you have to assemble it yourself. But the dial is so inconvenience or convenience is turned all the way down. But price is turned all the way down. And design is turned all the way up. So it is like great designed for maximum inconvenience and maximum value. 

And so looking at when you’re creating a new project, or a new blog, a new podcast, something like that, finding, you know, a dial or two that you can turn all the way down or all the way up, just so that you can be memorable so that you can find your kind of uniquely dedicated audience because there are going to be people who are attracted to the they’re going to value the same things that you value and put an extreme, you know, up or down on. And that is going to really help you find your audience and resonate and stand apart from the rest of everything that’s going on.

 

Kenny Soto  30:58  

I can see from that as Wow, that I that that’s that concept of the dials is something I’m definitely going to meditate on because I feel like that’s something that I personally haven’t focused on. And it’s like, what’s my brand all about? And I’m glad that you mentioned that, because now I feel like I’m closer to the answer. 

So my last question for you for this podcast, in terms of dials, is, if you can go back in time, and do your career all over again, with the same knowledge you have right now. How would you put the dial of speed all the way up to get to where you are faster?

 

Eric Jorgenson  31:43  

It’s a good question. I think I think speed is generally underrated. And that you can move really quickly. And that the advantage of speed really compounds over time. I think you really have to look at some trade offs here. 

Because you can work really hard and move really fast. And if you’re running in a circle, you can work really hard on things that are not getting return and not getting payback. And I think Jack butcher has a was just talking about this and has a really great framework for it. That’s basically like you say yes to every opportunity while you’re learning. 

As soon as you have something that is starting to work, you start saying no to things and you get increasingly increasingly increasingly focused. And so you have to speed really matters, speed of iteration speed of exploration, you know, there’s there’s kind of two modes, there’s Explorer, and there’s exploit. 

And you can go fast in each one. But there are very different modes. So if you are still in Explorer mode, you want to read really broadly, you want to meet a ton of people, you want to launch a bunch of experiments, you want to try different brands, you want to live different places, like all of those things. 

And then when some of those experiments that you’re launching, or some of those people that you’re meeting are turning into turning successful and turning into things that look like permanent things that you want to spend, you know, 10 years working on, then you start saying no to everything else, and shutting down some of those other explorations and digging in and focusing on speed of, of execution. 

And then you’re finding like the one or two key levers of your business, whether that’s grow my email, subscriber list, grow my Twitter following, add more sales, ship more product. And just ruthlessly focusing on those one or two kind of key drivers. But if you don’t know what those are yet, then like the business isn’t yet clear enough. And so, speed matters a lot. But it does not matter more than focus, and it does not matter more than precision. So you have to be sure that you’re focusing your effort on the right thing. 

And then once you are absent, once you are sure or relatively sure that you are done. It’s a matter of speed of execution and adding leverage adding resources. So but you can’t, you know,I have many times rushed that step and like tried to look around the corner and assumed that we were at, you know, some level of product-market fit or that we assumed that we were in the like speed of execution phase, but we were actually still in the exploration phase. And you if you rush that you can really wait some cycles. So it’s really a balance of like, you’re never going to be 100% Sure, but if you leave when you’re 30% Sure, you’ll have some false leaps and those are gonna hurt. But as long as it’s not a fatal jump, you’re you’re okay, just keep going.

 

Kenny Soto  35:01  

Conversations like these are the exact reason why I started this podcast. Thank you so much for your time. If, if people wanted to connect with you online, where can they find you? 

 

Eric Jorgenson  35:11  

Yeah, I’m most active on Twitter at Eric Jorgenson, I got open DMS, if you want to come holler at me or email, I’m pretty easy to get a hold of. But I’m glad it was helpful. I had fun with it too.

 

Kenny Soto  35:24  

And for the listeners, I will put all of the resources that he mentioned in the show notes so that you can also look into them as well. Again, thank you for your time, Eric, thank you to the listeners. You have just listened to another episode of Kenny Soto is digital marketing podcast and as always, I hope you have a great week. Bye